What is the value of a college education?
What is the value of a college education?
I have a very serious question for you. What is the value of a college education? At what point does your return on investment diminish to the point where the degree isn’t worthwhile, particularly when you factor in opportunity cost?
I’m of two minds on this topic. Traditionally, and statistically, a college degree is likely to help you earn more pay over your lifetime. Based on 2005 US Census data, it’s estimated that a bachelor’s degree is worth more than $1,210,760 in lifetime earnings on average than a high school diploma. These statistics are based on average income and the average cost of a college education.
The contrary view is that college degrees are not causative factors; that is, someone who is smart, self-motivated, and successful would achieve success with or without a college degree, as these traits are self-selecting for college-bound students. Furthermore, the contrary view says that if you were to invest the money spent in a four year college degree over the same time period while, say, starting an entrepreneurial venture, your lifetime earnings could easily eclipse that of a college graduate’s earnings.
My thinking on this is such: If you are likely to be an average to above average person, working in an average or above average professional field, living an average to above average life, a college degree makes total sense, as it is a prerequisite for getting in the door of many companies, especially for jobs that have a management track. If you intend to go into an established industry, a profession that doesn’t change much, or a professional which requires advanced degrees (medicine, law, etc.) then a college degree doesn’t just make sense, it’s a requirement for advancement.
However…
… if you are an exceptional person who focuses their future on disruption, a college degree probably isn’t going to matter much, and may in fact hold you back.
Exceptional people will be exceptional with or without a college degree, and if they do interview for a job, their credentials will be their track record and personal brand. The example I cite most is my friend Chris Brogan, who, after PodCamp Boston 1, got a job with Jeff Pulver’s Pulvermedia. Chris’ traditional resume was not all that impressive, to be blunt. But PodCamp Boston was a resume of sorts for him of a new kind, and that plus a personal blog were the credentials that landed him the job - at considerably more than average pay, I should add.
Disruption is when something’s changing so fast that only the agile can keep up, or in the best case scenario, a disruptor is leading change. For example, YouTube is a disruptive force in the world of video entertainment. It’s a game changer, forcing existing players in the space to deal with it on its terms. Google changed advertising forever with search. Social networks changed social interaction.
Disruption is important for two reasons - first, there’s a lot of opportunity to succeed, and second, there are no rules in a disruptive environment. The environment isn’t fully formed, so any rules that are “established” are quickly invalidated by change. This makes things like a college degree useless as a credential, and traditional ways of thinking a handicap, rather than an asset. Disruption is constant, never-ending change, and if you have a mind tuned to either creating disruption or being able to ride the waves of change like a surfer, the only thing a college degree will do is cost you four years’ worth of time that you could better use to stay ahead of the changes.
Here’s the quandary: how do you know which kind of person you are? I have no idea. I know I personally lean more towards disruption than establishment, but I also hold bachelor’s and master’s degrees. I can say for sure that the degrees are not causative - the traits that let me succeed did not come with the degrees; if anything, the degrees exist solely to confirm a few personal traits that were always there.
As a new media professional, disruption is my bread and butter, and I’ve seen many people in new media (a highly disruptive, ever-changing space) be incredibly successful with their track record and personal brand alone; to this day, I still don’t even know if half of them have college degrees or not, and to someone who is deeply engaged in new media, I don’t know that a college degree, at least in the traditional sense, would be the right choice for them. This, of course, highly conflicts with my role as an executive of the best student loan company I know, because I have an economic incentive to promote the college degree as an achievement, encourage as many people as possible to go to college, and if appropriate, encourage them to use our fine student loan products while in college. It’s an interesting dichotomy.
What’s your perspective on the value of a college education? Ultimately, if you were giving a graduation speech in front of 1,000 high school seniors, what would you say to them about whether or not college is the right choice?
As the example cited above, let me tell you a bit more backstory:
I attended (so far) 7 colleges. They never fit. I’ve been through all kinds of programs, but the same problem happened every time: I’d be learning about something unrelated to my passions, and without much explained sense of what it was going to do for me. Truly, though I’m surely to blame for some of this, I feel that if I’d found a program that better understood my learning style, I’d have finalized with some kind of functionary degree.
THE NEGATIVE to not having a degree is fear. I’m always worried that at some bad turn in the economy (and if you following the FAP, you know it’s coming), my lack of degree will finally bite me in the butt in a big way. It’s a slight dent in my otherwise confident experience base.
THE POSITIVE is that I work extra hard to derive value for my employers, so that they don’t really factor it in. I’ve had a recent rash of job interviews where people repeatedly waived my lack of degree for my experience “on the ground.”
ANOTHER NEGATIVE, however, is that when I listen to my CEO, a Harvard Business School graduate, I can tell when he sees something simple, that all business grads know, and he can tell almost immediately that I lack that basic, fundamental knowledge. (This often happens when he outlines business models quickly).
So, to do it all over again, having a degree would’ve helped in lots of ways. I’m clearly the exception, and I certainly wouldn’t want to encourage people to NOT get a degree based on how I’ve accomplished all I have in my life. Most of it has been through crazy luck and less-explainable skillsets.
I’d rather take the Christopher S. Penn route of useful degress, and then find ways to build my experience around and outside of those.
(God, do I sound like Mr. T? “Be cool! Stay in school!” I don’t mean to.)
November 24th, 2007 | #
Hi Chris! This is a great question.
The “a post-secondary degree is a financial and career decision only” approach is obsolete for college. That question can be safely applied to post-graduate work, but a college education is becoming the most basic requirements for professional (as opposed to trade) work. Even in this age of consulting, new media, personal employment, etc., customers are still going to look through the education section on the resume. It’s simply a part of our culture to revere money, power and intellect (not necessarily in that order).
But there is a strong message behind a college degree (or career military work). It shows that you can stick with something, you can finish a project, you can make choices and follow through, you can negotiate change. This is especially true today, since the period of adolescence has lengthened past 18 years of age.
College has turned into the last bastion of the growing time span we call “adolescence” in this country. Adolescence as a stage didn’t exist 150 years ago. When child-labor laws changed in the early 1900’s, longer schooling delayed functioning adulthood. Slowly an “in-between” growth stage developed, coming to the attention of academia around the 1950’s. 18 used to be considered “adult” age. Now, it’s 21 at best. Most children in this country aren’t raised to take on a profession or adult responsibilities by age 18, let alone start business ventures. Is this elongated childhood a good thing? Should college be treated like a finishing school for adulthood? It’s up to you to decide for yourself or your kids. Throughout history, there have been the outliers, the genius kids like Bill Gates, et al., that have skipped the degree, but for the vast majority of teens today college is a rite of passage. They will need to overcome the challenges college brings before they will be prepared to negotiate the work world on their own.
I think your question is very aptly applied to graduate school. To get an MBA or an advanced degree (I have a Masters in Educational Psychology myself) should be a career and financial decision only. By the time you are the age for graduate school, you should be able to make able financial decisions based on logic instead of ego, based on career plans instead of personal development.
Sorry so long. I should just blog about it myself! Thanks for the food for thought!
-Christine (PurpleCar)
November 24th, 2007 | #
Christine - good points, all, though personally I’m a bit dismayed at the idea of a college degree becoming the new GED.
Chris Brogan - here’s the question for you. Do you believe that not finishing a degree at any of the 7 is your responsibility? Is it the education system’s? Both? Neither?
November 25th, 2007 | #
My daughter grew up knowing that it was expected that she attend college. My belief is that you need a degree. It shows employers that you are interested in higher learning. I believe in lifelong learning.
I don’t believe that the process of achieving the degree is more important than the specific subject area. I have degrees in math, sciences & Spanish. I have had careers with the US Treasury in law enforcement, teaching high school & most recently public library admin. Now I’m working as a community manager in social media. I chose to continue learning after the degrees were granted. It has allowed me to do the work that I want to. A degree definitely offers more flexibility.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Connie - I strongly believe in lifelong learning. That said, I don’t necessarily believe a degree is a causative factor in lifelong learning - my feeling is that habit starts between the ages of 0 and 10 in the home, and is reinforced by good educational experiences.
Learning != education to me. Education and indoctrination are important insofar as they help integrate you into society, but as Richard Bandler says, it’s the map, not the territory.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Yay! you rescued my post. I agree that the degree doesn’t guarantee someone will keep learning. But a degree will certainly make the starting salary higher than w/out. It’s a good investment.
Maybe lifelong learning is more important than the degree? What if you have the degree, but no interest in lifelong learning? That gives new meaning to a terminal degree…
November 25th, 2007 | #
Great question Chris. As someone who doesn’t have a bachelors (I’ve got two Associate degrees, one in business, one in computer science) I often as the question “what if?.” I’ve been blessed to make a far better than average living as a contractor, but like Chris I also have concerns when the economy slows.
Lacking the BS (never mind the Masters) seems to leave me in a place where getting on the management track is difficult, but not totally impossible. At this point with 25 years in my field, management of millions of dollars in successful projects as a principle consultant and lots of plain ole’ experience and people skills, there is an opportunity for me, but it will still be more difficult.
As Chris mentioned, there are times when I know that someone who has gone to business school just sees certain things I don’t. Over the years I’ve found that those instances have diminished (25 years pays off it seems) significantly. Part of that gap closing also includes a voracious appetite for reading in all my various disciplines.
The last thing that I would think of is that by not going to a bigger school, I missed on a LOT of networking opportunities. And, in some cases, those things can’t be under estimated. As a quick example, I had a business concept a few years ago that had lots of potential. I had one contact I worked with to speak with the major name football league and it’s phone sponsor. Alas, I needed $$$ but I didn’t have any understanding of how or where to find what I needed. If I had, instead of seeing Sprint and ESPN talking about that content now, you would have seen my company doing it - or at least providing all the back end for it. There’s my degree from the school of hard knocks. :D Of course, now I’m taking that experience and I’m filling in those blanks so that when the next opportunity comes (and it will) I’ll be ready to jump on it.
In the end, you’re right on both counts. Those with the propensity to accomplish will, regardless of the degree. I think having the degree opens up opportunities and lets you bypass obstacles that Chris and I both work hard at overcoming, so it is a benefit. Of course, I can’t count the numbers of people I’ve run across that have degrees and that are completely incompetent. Ces’t la vie.
At the end, no matter what you do regarding your education if you work hard, work smart, bring value, please the customer and continue to learn each day, you’ll succeed more likely than not!
November 25th, 2007 | #
Phillip: the networking aspect is definitely one to consider, though again, social media may be slowly eroding at the alumni network’s value proposition as one of a few avenues of access.
I have friends and customers who are looking at student loan balances of upwards of $130,000 upon graduation for their bachelor’s degrees. After repayment, assuming all goes well, they’ll have paid an aggregate probably close to $500,000 in principal and interest. That’s a tough knock to ROI!
November 25th, 2007 | #
Hi Chris,
I would like to start off by quoting the poet Paul Simon:
“When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
Its a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of edu—cation
Hasn’t hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall”
…
It is real hard for me to put a value on a college education.
As an employer, I can attest that for some of the people, a college degree is just proof someone was able to get their tuition paid for. It is not necessarily a certificate of knowledge. My father once told me that 20 years after college, the topics you learned you will know and everything else will have just been something “you studied.”
Years ago when I was thinking about what to major in college my father asked me to ask some of my friends to ask their parents who went to college what they got their degree in and what work they ended up doing. In most cases their degrees did not match up to their profession.
Which leads me to asking how in the world can someone at 19 be expected to know what they want to do for their life’s work? Sometimes people who are 40 years old don’t know what they really want to be doing. And why do we have to box ourselves into professions to satisfy our parents and our friends if this isn’t something we believe in ourselves? How often do people get boxed into taking the career path that they feel that have to take rather than the one they want to take?
While it is true I have a BBA in accounting, I’m a graduate of what I call “The Abraham Lincoln School of Education.” Just about everything that I know is self-taught. And I’d like to think that my lack of education hasn’t hurt me none.
There are times when I think about going back to school. And having a chance to learn because I want to be there, not because it was a place I had to be.
Yes people mature at college. And people who carry the title of “Harvard MBA” are more likely going to have more doors opened for them than someone who doesn’t have that title. But eventually, at some point in someone’s life, it becomes the person you are who matters more than the person you represent yourself to be on paper.
If it was up to me, I would much rather have a chance to meet someone in person and make a hiring decision than simply just someone based on whether or not they have a college degree and where that degree came from.
So yeah, it is real hard for me to put a value on a college education.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Great points, Jeff. Now the ultimate question - since you are very public about your kids and what they’re doing online - what do you tell them about college? Despite being hard to value, will they go?
November 25th, 2007 | #
As one of the types that doesn’t have a degree, I am always conscious of the fact that I put more effort and time into maintaining my desirability to employers and staying ahead of the game, than simply executing on what I know and do.
That said, in OUR industry, I think degrees don’t do all that much. Unless the degree is accompanied by enough experience to provide “street cred”, it is fairly worthless. It definitely is not a core requirement. It can however be an accent and it can be the difference between a great hire and an exceptional hire.
November 25th, 2007 | #
For my kid’s sake I hope colleges evolve enough so that my kids have something they want to learn rather than what they will be forced to study.
And maybe they will have enough positive experiences to keep them wanting to be there.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Jeff: An interesting perspective. Given that you’re a parallel entrepreneur, if you were to buy, say, a failing, outmoded college that was closing its doors, how would you reinvent the college? Distance learning, a la carte courses, and pay-as-you-go are trends emerging now, but given your reputation as a disruptor, what would a college need to look like in order for you to wholeheartedly recommend your kids go there?
November 25th, 2007 | #
I shouldn’t be responding to this, I haven’t attended college yet. In fact, I was just working on a college essay before reading this post and its comments. But, I’ll give some thoughts anyway.
I’ve been working all my life to go to college, I just didn’t know it the whole time. I didn’t know it when I was in elementary school. I didn’t know it when I was in middle school. However, when I entered high school, it always loomed. Now that I’m a senior, I’m thankful that the many versions of me in the past have studied, worked hard, and made smart choices.
Why do I want to attend a college? I’ve been told my entire life that it would be the key to success. Do I believe it? Yes. I have to. I’ve been working for this my whole life up to this point, and I would be undefined without this goal. If you took the uphill battle of getting into a good college out of my life, I wouldn’t know what to do.
Learning after high school can be done without spending the big dollars to go to a college, but unless one is motivated, it’s difficult. One can compensate for a lack of formal education with their own motivation, yes. However, I think that’s much less probable than the reverse, unfortunately.
Instead of telling our kids to get into college, we should be telling them to think about college and *beyond*. Now that I’m beginning to think about that, it’s terrifying.
November 25th, 2007 | #
This is a great topic. I attended college but never got a degree. I’m not sure if it hurt or helped me. I really enjoyed college but I couldn’t finish due to financial and other issues in my life at the time. I guess that I have lead my life as a disruptor as you talk about above and things seem to be working out for me. I’ve gained quite a bit of local notoriety for what I’ve been doing online and regularly get calls and inquiries about what I do. I was invited to be a student advisor at a university this semester–and they really didn’t seem to care a bit that I hadn’t finished a formal degree program. My day job is also in a field where most of my coworkers have degrees, and if I were to compare my life and income to that of my friends with degrees I would have to say I am doing much better than almost all of them. But that is not to say that I wouldn’t have liked to have finished my degree.
Anyway I think you are right on with what you say in this post. I can’t say that college is worthless, but there really isn’t any way that I can say that it guarantees anything either. And I think thats a problem with how a lot of people think about it–they tend to think that if they can only get this or that degree their life would be so much better. But it’s definitely not the case.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Ricky, you raise one of the most challenging issues facing colleges and advocates for college, albeit indirectly.
TONS of money is spent every year trying to encourage more kids to go to college, to attend college, to be a part of the college experience. I was at the SREB GoAlliance conference recently, and it was entirely focused on getting more poor kids into college.
One of the elephants in the room was simply this: it’s great to get into college. STAYING there is another thing entirely.
The other elephant was the one already discussed: attending college and getting a degree is a correlation to success, but not a causation.
Looking back at my life at this point, 10 years after graduating from a somewhat prestigious liberal arts college (Franklin & Marshall College), I would do things a little differently than I did.
First, I’d take a business accounting course. I wasn’t a business major, (poli sci!), but looking back, just getting the basics of accounting would be helpful. Likewise, I’d take an economics 101. In fact, I’d take a lot of 101 in a lot of seemingly unrelated fields. I regret not taking philosophy and deeply appreciate having taken Intro to Islam and Japanese 101 & 102. I’d probably add Spanish into the mix.
But coursework is probably not the thing I’d do most differently if I were to rewind the clock. I’d spend a LOT more time being social, getting to know people, maybe even throwing my own events. I’d spend time building my social network and learning even more about the people I hung out with, their backgrounds, and what made them the way they were. Success comes in unlikely forms, so I’d spend time with folks from lots of different backgrounds, and above all else, once the last notes of Pomp and Circumstance faded, I’d rigorously stay in touch.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Well, let’s throw someone like me in the mix. Undergraduate degree in Biology. JD a few years later. Now I am a new media girl, yet my podcast uses my experience in basic science, validity of research and science, and the legal background gives me a sense as to the rules of the general game of life.
I use my education as a jumping off point to other things, not just a focus. And that’s what I believe an education is for- not a limiter or a funnel, but as a place to begin what you do later on.
For the record, I do think the teachers you have in college, any mentors, are ultimately much more influential than any paper you write. If you find the right mentors, your life can change. And the price tag of a college does not guarantee quality alone, but the better the school, in theory, the better the company- meaning you are more likely to end up with other smart friends that will challenge you. That’s part of what you pay for.
November 25th, 2007 | #
“Education never ends, Watson. It is a series of lessons with the greatest for the last.” - Sherlock Holmes
There are some great points above, so I won’t try to reiterate or top any of them. I’ll just offer a perspective of learning versus training.
As someone who had intended to pursue his M.D., I choose to avoid the typical biology or chemistry major the premeds seemed so fond of. Instead, I chose classics, which allowed me an incredible breadth of study within a fairly finite period of history. I was able to study subjects that fell under the traditional fields of history, drama, architecture, sociology, psychology and political science, to name a few.
After having to analyze scores of plays, poems, historical events, etc., I found that my ability to think critically and write well became more finely tuned. Writing had always been something I had enjoyed, so I was glad I found a way to strengthen it. While you’d think a classics major would likely be saying “would you like fries with that?” after college, I found that it was a natural to end up doing corporate communications and speech writing, which is what I ended up doing for the National Director for Medical Research at the Department of Veterans Affairs.
My point is, college should not necessarily be approached as some cookie-cutter / checklist exercise where you “must” take this course, or you “must” follow a predetermined path. I think it’s much more reasonable to allow students to pursue things that matter to them and that they think may be of use to them in their careers (with the proper guidance, of course). My alma mater actually has a program where some very exceptional students design their own course of study from across disciplines and are required to submit a thesis prior to graduation. This kind of investment and dedication - while largely academic in nature - requires a supreme investment of personal commitment from students, thus demonstrating to them that they are the masters of their own fate in life.
November 25th, 2007 | #
No one cares about your degree as soon you have real world success.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Jeff Pulver on Reinventing College
Chris Penn wrote: “If you were to buy, say, a failing, outmoded college that was closing its doors, how would you reinvent the college? Distance learning, a la carte courses, and pay-as-you-go are trends emerging now, but given your reputation as a disruptor, what would a college need to look like in order for you to wholeheartedly recommend your kids go there?”
Chris you ask interesting questions. :)
If had a chance to buy a college and make it my own, I would look to redefine the experience and make college fun. At Pulver College I would look to reinvent the college from the bottom up and spend as much time as would be needed to build a core team that will be responsible for running the college, teaching the courses and doing the recruiting of students into the school.
I would turn to the startup team to propose the first set of courses to be offered across multiple disciplines. I would also reach out to some of the more successful entrepreneurs from the area and ask them to be available to share their lives’ experiences with the students at our college. I would have an advisory board of both undergraduate and graduate students and give these students a voice in the future directions of the college and help make sure we are keeping our edge.
Each professor will be treated as if they were a member of a startup team. I would require the professors to be committed to the school and ask them to be the ones who teach their classes and be the ones to grade their own student’s work. I would ask for the professors to make themselves available for their students at times which are convenient for their students.
Pulver College would make college a hands-on experience.
Pulver College is something that will have to be experienced in person and something that doesn’t work well in a virtual environment. At my school, I would embrace the individual and look to attract people who believe in the “Power of One” – that one person can make a difference. And I would look to embrace the creative spirit and encourage our students to find their own private revolutions.
I would offer classes on “blowing things up” and classes on “how things work” and I would offer classes on creativity and the opportunity for the students to teach their professors about the things they are the most passionate about. I would look to offer classes which offer kids clues about life and offer a road map for the next steps in their lives. I would have courses that teach about “fear, greed and disruption” and ones that answer the question: “How did I get here?”
Pulver College would be at a minimum a 5 year experience where our students would be focused to take a year off and travel the world and experience life at it’s fullest. The college would have a travel department and help students plan their year’s journey into self discovery and adventure.
At Pulver College, our students will learn about how to take having fun seriously while at the same time embracing the creative spirit and helping the students embrace their passions and help them become the person they are trying to be.
I would look for each of the students to build their own social identity and their own social networks. I would look for the students to suggest to the administration technology platforms that we should be looking into.
—
Chris I think there is a lot I would do that would be different than what I experienced as an undergraduate student but not that different than some people may be experiencing school today.
November 25th, 2007 | #
If Jeff ever funds this college, I will volunteer my time as a teacher, gratis. But only if I can attend, too. : )
November 25th, 2007 | #
I want to take a course in Blowing Things Up.
November 25th, 2007 | #
Now comes the part relevant to my work - how much would Pulver College cost to attend? There are some revolutionary and dangerous ideas about reforming college costs as well, things like pay-as-you-go, minimal facilities (think classrooms and offices only, no athletic facilities, sports, etc. stuff you can get at health clubs, restaurants, and places which specialize indoing those things best), investors from outside, and ideally alumni donations once things are rolling.
How can we make Pulver College affordable?
November 25th, 2007 | #
Pulver College hopefully will have professor Dan Dubno offering the course on “Blowing Things Up.”
November 25th, 2007 | #
“How can we make Pulver College affordable?”
Another great question. I will defer to the community to help suggest ways to make Pulver College affordable. :)
November 25th, 2007 | #
One of the biggest hidden costs in college today is re-teaching stuff that incoming kids should already know. Likewise, social media technology like wikis lets us collect best of breed knowledge. What, I wonder, would a college bootcamp look like that aggregated the very best teaching techniques all together? i.e. this teacher from Des Moines has a BRILLIANT explanation of fractions. That teacher from Los Angeles can explain verb conjugation in a quarter of the time as any other teacher, and twice as many kids “get it” on the first go-around.
I wonder if Pulver College could be made affordable simply by being the aggregator of the very best teaching methods available?
November 25th, 2007 | #
I have an Associate Degree in Computer Animation - something I’ve never once used since graduating. I’ve considered returning several times for various degrees, but the longer I’m in the real world, the more I realize THIS type of experience is more valuable than college theory — although I absolutely LOVE the college experience, especially because it’s linear and structured, which reality is not.
Other Things I Loved About College:
* New people
* Co-opetition
* Exposure to new ideas / experiences
* Time to learn about myself
* Preparation for the real world (somewhat)
More Things I Love About Real Life:
* Even MORE exposure to new ideas / experiences
* The opportunity to build businesses
* It counts
November 26th, 2007 | #
no doubt Pulver College would be an “Uncollege”. Right? :-)
November 26th, 2007 | #
I’m still in college finishing my undergrad at BU. Most of my friends here are almost done with school, but still have no idea what they “want to do with their lives.” I don’t understand this. At roughly $44,000 a year here, what the heck have they been doing all this time? They’re paying all this money to stay just as confused as the day they left high school? I don’t get it. I suppose I feel lucky that I found a major and program that I really love. I worry that a lot of my peers are just sitting around, waiting for a lightbulb moment, and college isn’t actually giving it to them. Maybe someday I’ll be an adjunct.
Oh, and I’d DEFINITELY take classes at Pulver College.
November 26th, 2007 | #
Amanda: did you get $44,000 worth of value every year? Was it worth it?
November 26th, 2007 | #
I’m not sure what $44,000 really means. Since I’m in a place right now where I’m proud of who I am and excited about my career and future, I tend to think it was all worth it. But maybe my idea of it all is clouded since I didn’t pay for any of it myself. I’m extremely lucky in that my parents paid for my education and I have no loans hanging over me when I graduate (in like, 3 weeks).
I don’t think BU really needs to take that much money from its students, though. Colleges are getting way too greedy, IMHO. But if that’s what it had to be for me to have the experiences I had here, then it is what it is. I know my parents would do it all over again, though, for me to find happiness and success. (And they kind of are doing it all over again, since my brother just started at Brown University in September. That’s like, $50,000 a year!)
November 26th, 2007 | #
Pulver Uncollege sounds awesome. Sign me up.
November 26th, 2007 | #
The completion of higher formal education is a HIGH PROBABILITY PREDICTOR of future success, not a guarantee.
One cannot know whether or not college is “worth it” while they are attending, but they can rest assured that it is a foundation upon which great things may be built. Clearly not the only viable foundation, but certainly one of the strongest.
Resume’s that show increasing levels of responsibility are a dime a dozen, resume’s that provide solid examples of accomplishments are better. NORMALLY, a college degree is the first major project that a young person can point to as a solid example of a major completed accomplishment.
Perhaps a better group to ask about the value of their degree is that ever-growing group of mid-career adults that go BACK to school to get their degree’s, whether undergrad, or graduate degrees. I did 3 years at a small liberal arts school in Oklahoma, but was unable to finish due to finances. After a few years in the Army in the 80’s, I had a good bit of money to go back and finish, and did so via an AA degree, then completing my BS. I went & completed an MBA for two reasons: 1) for me. I wanted it as a matter of personal achievement, a personal goal, and 2) because the job market in the Mid-Atlantic dictates that undergraduate degrees are the baseline norm & graduate degrees are what allow you out stand out above the crowd.
Was it worth it? Every penny. Every minute.
November 26th, 2007 | #
PS - I had a conversation with a colleague of mine while at a conference in Vancouver recently. This gentleman is a highly-esteemed professor & researcher at MIT. He said “I’m waiting for the day that the first Ivy drops it’s tuition completely. All of them are flush with ever-increasing endowments, and simply do not need students tuition payments. All it will take is for the first one to do it, and all the others will fall like dominoes.”
Hmmm.
November 26th, 2007 | #
Got my BA way back when. Using it every day as a homeschool parent. Good thing I managed to avoid the financial burden because this gig isn’t paying really well, ;)
This discussion reminds me of why I homeschool. The basic idea being that if you are willing to step away from what everyone thinks is “the norm”, you discover that you can do more, better, for less money, with more innovation, more hands-on learning, better individual definition and application, and with both a broader scope and more detailed focus. In other words, the best of every world, applied individually. And then you can take what you get from all of that and apply it to the “next” step, be it college, a job, entrepreneurship, the military, parenting, etc.
I think that’s what would happen in Pulver College. I’d also like to see if the traditional universities could ever be brave enough to do what TroyTurner suggests. That would be change like education hasn’t seen in a few lifetimes.
November 26th, 2007 | #
I’m in my senior year of college at 41. I started as a traditional student at 17, dropped out (giving up a National Merit Scholarship) to put husband v.1 through school, and took about 20 years to get back to it. I wouldn’t have time to go now, but I can’t work due to a disability.
I’ve already had jobs that usually require a college degree, and managed people who had degrees. It took me longer to get there, though, than it would have if I’d had a degree.
I’m hoping that my years of experience plus a degree will make me more marketable after I graduate, as I do hope to return to work. I’ve tried to stay in touch and keep making contacts, so that I don’t lose ground.
I’m not terribly unhappy about not finishing school when I went as a teen, because I really didn’t know myself then, or what kind of work I would truly enjoy. I don’t want to sound conceited, but I won academic awards in language arts, social studies, math, and science as well as awards for music (vocal and instrumental) and other extracurricular pursuits. I’d worked in various businesses from the age of 12, too, so I already had a basic grounding there. What I didn’t have was one thing that stood above the rest as a strength or preference–I enjoyed all of it! I was passionate about music, but my parents were extremely discouraging about career possibilities in music, so I didn’t even consider that as a major.
Writing does draw on all of the above, especially technical writing. I’d never even heard of technical writing back when I began college in 1984, so I didn’t know that it would end up being “my thing.”
My daughter, on the other hand, knows that photography is her joy, that she’s great at it, and that she wants to do it for a living. She’s passionate about it, and has been for several years (she’s 17 now). I worry about her going into an artistic field, but I’m not going to do as my parents did. I know that she’s going to be a lifelong learner, due to the habits she’s already formed, so I’m not too worried about her adapting to whatever happens.
November 26th, 2007 | #
Chris,
The whole ‘finishing school’ thing was void on me, I think, as I’d already spent time in the Army. In fact, I felt like I was in class with a bunch of kids. :, I was looking for skills and a road map to success.
I went to the Joe Kubert School of Cartoon and Graphic Art. I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a Freelance artist, in fact. So, I went to school to learn the trade. So far, so good. The real problem that I found in this kind of environment, is that it is taught by a lot of teachers with experience working for companies, or working for themselves (barely successfully) as freelance artists. Many of them had made names for themselves, and all were unbelievably great artists, but not a single one of them could run a real business.
After about 4 years of freelancing as an artist and designer, I got SO TIRED of the freelance loop (start to grow, get overwhelmed, shrink back down, repeat) that I started asking local business chamber members for advice. It became immediately apparent that I had no real ‘business’ knowledge. Yes, I knew how to quote jobs, send invoices and the like, but I knew nothing about different business models, automation, duplication, passive income, etc.
I also found that I knew nothing about money. I’ve learned more about money from perusing the FAP from time to time than I learned in high school or college.
So, in the end, what do I think? I use the skills I learned in college on a daily basis. The real problem for me is that I didn’t learn enough, and there was no one to tell me the next steps to take to learning what I needed to know. I was doing the same things that my parents had done. The same things my teachers had done. In fact, the same things the majority of people do.
In the end, its been podcasting and great contacts that I’ve made in social media that have been constantly turning me onto the information I need to continue forward, whether books, blogs, or what have you. If social media hadn’t come along, I’d probably still be fairly lost or back in college for Business courses so I could try to find a way out of my self-made trap.
If I had a single thought to pass along to a graduating class it would be this: “Strive to understand the world you live in. Understand the way it works. Understand the way the money works. Understand the way the politics works. Understand the way success works. Understand the way the relationships work. Your skills, whatever they are, will work to serve you, but without understanding, you’ll be left to serve those who have achieved that understanding.”
Wow. Sorry. Who’s turn is it on this soap box?
November 26th, 2007 | #
I very much like the reference to disruption and traditional ways of thinking as a handicap, rather than an asset. Personally I find it very hard to convince my highly educated coworkers and associates the value of new media and why they need it. Speaking from someone who has experienced engineering layoffs in the past, staying ahead of changes is absolutely vital. Go ahead get a degree, but social network like mad.
November 26th, 2007 | #
I love this discussion. I think we all want to go to Pulver College, as students and as teachers.
Maybe as part of Jeff’s curriculum, it should even be set up in quarters or semesters where you take one on campus and one off, in a co-op type of environment, blending the real world with the college world. I think this would help give young adults a real appreciation for the difference between “real life” and school, at a time where they still don’t have all those decision making skills figured out.
(Frontal lobes and their executive functions don’t finish brain development until about age 22, making college the safest place in the world to park 18-22 year old boys, ie. my sons, in my opinion.)
College should be a time of experimentation, trial and error that won’t haunt you forever. It should be the time where you earn your wings, so to speak, as an adult, but as such, it needs to be a scaffolding process towards the real world, not just another hothouse protecting you from harsh reality. I think something like Pulver College would do that very well.
November 26th, 2007 | #
As we discuss the value of the college education, it’s becoming more and more apparent, at least to me, that the degree is a hedge, perhaps an indicator of latent skills, and a networking opportunity. Coursework clearly isn’t the deciding factor, or online education would make brick and mortar colleges completely irrelevant. The networking, the interaction, the face to face conversations seem to be what gives college its value-add above and beyond the academics.
If the price tag of a college is a “filter” to keep out a certain class of individuals in order to make the networking and personal interactions as desirable as possible for those who can afford it at certain schools, what does it say about that school’s administration and philosophy towards lower income students and families?
It does, however, strike me that the perspective of “it doesn’t matter where you get your bachelor’s degree” is more or less true. AS long as you work hard to achieve reasonably good academic performance, and you maximize your networking opportunities, a less expensive degree appears to be functionally equivalent to a more expensive degree, except at the fringes of the bell curve.
November 26th, 2007 | #
I don’t think Price Tag is a proxy for Quality, although I think the schools that are seen as some of the best, ie Ivies, then get “permission” to charge outrageous amounts for the services, kind of like buying designer clothes. Levis will cover your tush as well as Calvin Klein, but people pay extra for something, whether that’s perceived value in the name, fit, material, etc.
The largest problem with this debate is education is much more like long term R & D in yourself than it is a mere widget or commodity. But like making any major investment, you hope to see something worthwhile at the other end. Hence the reason why education may be “insurance” for the real world.
And I see experiences like the military as being equivalent to college in many respects- we need to stop thinking that classwork and education always happens in a classroom and involves writing papers. What about making a movie, a website- doing something to demonstrate skills and communicate the learning in a non-traditional way?
Let’s face it- the lecture format has been around since Socrates or at the latest, the founding of Sorbonne in the 1400’s. It works for some kids and not for others.
In fact, on this week’s LD Podcast, going up later today, I feature the director of admissions at Landmark College, a college for kids with learning disabilities, about universal design in curriculum and about how they teach their students how they learn best, to show them how to be successful in school- something very few students know. With drop out rates from traditional college approaching 50%, perhaps it’s time to look at teaching people to be life long learners off the bat, and save Philosophy for sophomore year.
November 26th, 2007 | #
Cynthia,
If you’re worried about anything in an “art field”, it should be the TYPE of work she gets and the industry, not the general field itself. As with many disciplines, there are areas where bad influences and bad decisions abound (modeling & high fashion photography, for example) where a person can get into trouble in many ways. While these tend to be the areas highlighted in TV, movies and the like, they are not breadth of the discipline.
Keep a conscious eye on the world around you and see the absolute MASSIVE amount of photography out there. Everywhere you turn, there are photographs. There is definitely work if you want to find it.
My sister also loves photography. She has a natural eye for it, but got married and had kids early, so she was just thinking about getting back into it. A couple of years ago when she flew up to visit, I invited a photographer friend of mine to lunch, and the three of us had a very candid discussion about the world of photography and the many fields and paths to success. It was a good discussion. I highly recommend that tactic to anyone thinking about going into any field. Find someone who’s truly ‘made it’ and let them talk about it. Very enlightening.
November 26th, 2007 | #
I need to pipe up again about developmental progress one achieves during the college years.
The philosophy classes at the University of Pittsburgh taught me how to think and write critically. These lessons were delivered precisely at the time in my development (18-22yrs) where Piaget’s Formal Reasoning stage was solidifying my thinking skills. I know how to deconstruct pretty much anything now, starting systematically, bit by bit. Just as one doesn’t pick up business acumen without study and practice, one doesn’t learn that essential critical eye without learning the methodology. This socratic, greek, ancient, critical (whatever you want to call it) skill is the point behind a democracy. We need more citizens with this ability to be able to run this country better and avoid the fall of Rome.
I’d like to attend Pulver college. The first class I’d take (or teach, or both) would be “how to sniff out the bullshit in just about anything, and what to do about it.” Regular colleges teach you this, but Pulver college’s course would be more fun and more efficient.
Oh, and by the way, I would have NEVER sat through a business course in college - I just wasn’t raised to know better. Now I wish there was a Pulver college business course that wouldn’t bore me to death. I’d pay good money for that!
November 26th, 2007 | #
PurpleCar - interesting comment about B-school. I have an MBA - that I didn’t start until my mid-30’s! My first time through college I barely passed accounting 101, but not even with a high enough grade to count toward that degree. When I went back to school as an “adult learner”, working toward those same classes, I was paranoid enough of them that I studied my butt off - also because by then I knew how important those subjects were/would be - I finished my degree with a 98.8 GPA. I then went on for my MBA because I recognized the positional/financial potential for advanced degrees. I can honestly say that taking MBA courses as a mid-career professional, I was able to go to work everyday & use literally something everyday that I had studied &/or covered the night before. But I learned about life too. I also learned the critical importance of being a life-long learner, and especially of NOT being one of the people that “if under 29 will never understand Twitter.” !!
November 26th, 2007 | #
commentary: jeff pulver - How would YOU reinvent College?
hmmm - chris penn you should be ashamed of yourself and chris brogan and Christine Cavalier purplecar all of you don’t know what you have done to me - so jeff write me an email after i read a bunch of what you and he wrote - “What? No comments??” - i am the dumping ground of many ideas for jeff - hmmm and well i have been trying to get him to think about a smart ass research company for years and so i wrote to him that he might want to think of it as a salon of conversations with a diverse array of stake holders plus think of it not as a college but a pulver collage or a university to study the universe of curiosity anyway - i wrote to him this whole symphony of ideas and metaphors and and too much of too much -
fyi i don’t have a degree myself - they had to call an ambulance to get me out of erasmus hall high school in brooklyn - my gift and curse is my dyslexia and learning disabilities - i am a recovering artist/inventor/dreamer/social-sculpture/filmmaker/photographer/painter/poet/sculpture/web-swimmer etc - i can’t memorize things - i am a deconstructionist who is an inventor - what is an inventor but a person who gets inside of things and becomes them and then thinks about what uses something could be and also what are they missing - its a gift and curse depending on if you can take the heat in the kitchen
i think education of the future needs to re-invent itself - i helped develop the nyc bored of ed and project arts web site in the mid to late 90’s and when the chancellor of the nyc school system why i did it - i said “to get revenge - what better way to get revenge then to make a difference” - and also what would i want to see if i was ten years old - anyway i think the value of a collage education as is anything - is what you put into it is what you get out of it - its the passion the wonder the discover the imagination of the beholder - i have been filming a documentary series for six years called Playing With Science PlayingWithScience.com that WGBH online and FORAtv are interested in giving me
a channel but no money honey - anyway i have been filming benoit mandelbrot in a snow storm and oliver sacks and all sorts of scientist at play - check the web site for in need of updated list of events and people i have filmed - anyway we need have the courage to be creative and to have an environment that encourages curiosity not memorization - testing only proves you can memorize something - education today is more about propaganda - history is just the fiction of the facts or faction - and often about instilling a fear of power and power of fear and top down management of fear - in they end its an assembly line preparing us to be good worker bees and to make sure we are playing follow the leader - and to keep us in line and addicted to fear and unfortunately the leaders of the world know that education is not about freedom but about the opposite and very little is about what we think its - ask any teacher how much they can put in of themselves when teaching a class - they have a program of points of view to cover, information they need to passing down for the most part - go figure - well there you have it some diaRHETORICS from me - to read any more of my stream of conscious unconscious conscientiousness - diaRHETORICS.com
geo
we need to educate the future and to stop pretending we are zombies and act responsibly to the people who are not yet born
the art of living is making your life an art
November 26th, 2007 | #
Living in Israel as a financially independent person from a considerably young age, I simply found that I could not afford the experience of going to school. I had impressive, exceptional grades and had completed some of my matriculation exams early, and - thinking I may wish to attend college in the States one day - even took the American SAT at the local embassy, without the traditional prep course offered at American schools. I scored above 1500, not that I ever consider these tests to be an indication of anything much. But plans heading one way and life going another, I discovered I could afford neither college in the States or trying to make it through a design and engineering college over here in Israel. While in school, during freshman year, I was both refused a scholarship (told that my father having an MD stamped after his name on my personal records would effectively block me from receiving financial aid - according to the dean, EVERY doctor must be filthy rich, right? I was also given an official letter instructing all freshman to refrain from working, as to not “hurt their academic studies”.
While I was trying to go to school, I also happened to land a job at an online gaming firm. It was excellent timing, industry-wise. I learned a lot, and slowly, I began to take more interest and apply myself more to my work than my studies. Why? While at school I was being taught conceptually about many things that were no longer relevant to my life, at work I was getting hands-on experience and seeing results I could bet my money on, so to speak. Getting involved with the internet as my work and lifeline as opposed to the cultural and recreational playground it had been before changed my life. By sophomore year, I was earning more than my parents, both with several degrees. I eventually left school to take on more at work, and haven’t looked back since.
The only thing really tempting me to return to school (I have a hunch I will someday) is pure interest, a constant yearning to learn adn maybe some typical Polish guilt, being the product of a home that was strictly pro-academia…My parents still sometimes ask what it is exactly I make my living from with “this internet stuff”.
November 27th, 2007 | #
I went to college to be an athletic trainer, then I changed my mind and wanted to be the nation’s first female superbowl director.
There are two majors at Brigham Young University that could have possibly helped if they were tweaked just a bit: Theater and Media Arts with emphasis on Film or Communications emphasis on Journalism.
My degree states Communications emphasis in Communication Studies.
The college used me and actually my husband-yet I didn’t know him at the time, to try and recreate a new major: Creative Studies.
You see the Film side was mostly about Film Theory and History. Most of the teachers in that area graduated, got their masters and came back to teach-not a whole lot of experience in the real world.
The Journalism was just that-writing and reporting, not multi-camera production. In fact, they got rid of camera operators for their news productions and rely on a computer to handle the production side of things.
So I went to my counselor and told her that this school didn’t have anything for me. She told me that the best thing would be to drop out and just start working, but they wanted to know if I was up for some experimenting. I said yes and it was the best thing. They allowed me to pick and choose which classes I wanted to take from each major-no need to take prerequisite classes.
And you know what I did, I chose most of the classes with adjunct professors-so I could get to know them and their company.
I also joined the schools field production crew-KBYU who shot all of the schools sports. I had a great time and got to talk to people from ESPN and was in the process of gathering letters of recommendation for an internship with ESPN. Then I met “the other kid.” It was summer and not anywhere near the school and we happen to meet on a production. When we met we found out that each of us knew about “the other kid we are experimenting with” but now we had finally met. When we walked into the advisement center that next semester together holding hands-they all started laughing…
My husband, who worked on multi-million dollar movies was turned down from the film major because he was “over qualified.” So they decided to experiment with him and put him through an advertising/commercial production route.
He also was allowed to pick and choose. And his degree is also in Communication Studies.
When it comes down to it, we have a degree in “general things pertaining to communications.” But I am very grateful that the school saw a need and tried to work something out. While my degree is basically useless in the corporate world, and I haven’t needed it yet being in video production/new media, I am glad I was able to meet the people I have because they’ve been a spring board for what my husband and I have accomplished.
Is college worth it, depends on what you are going for. I see my mom who is a bank teller, no degree and stuck making 10/hr. I also see friends with college degrees not making much more than that either.
November 28th, 2007 | #
After 30+ years of working in higher education, mostly in financial aid, and having earned a couple of degrees, I would like to posit that a college education is worth more than money.
Think, for instance, of the medical doctor working in a free clinic, or doctors without borders; lawyers doing pro bono work to help the abused and neglected, or the senior citizen victimized by scams or, someone denied social security disability who clearly qualifies but doesn’t have the knowledge of the system to receive the benefit; or the veterans coming back scarred from war; the professors and other educators working at low salaries to bring education to others, knowing full well that their students’ salaries will surpass their own in a year or two, even though they’ve been in the business for 10, 20, or 30 years.
So there is certainly a value in having a college education for many people. It not only teaches facts, theories, trades, etc., but it gives students the opportunity to develop their sense of social responsibility; work with a diverse group of people; open their eyes to new viewpoints, and more.
Economically, hey, if you’re a plumber or electrician, or other skilled trades-person, and the economy is decent or you’re willing to move where the jobs are, you can earn a pretty good living (not to mention overtime, which is something most college-degree-requiring-jobs will never pay) without the time and expense of a college education.
And for some folks, that’s plenty. They may not have the time, desire, or a good enough K-12 education to make a college education worthwhile.
But a college education teaches you to think; to analyze; and to research answers to be able to solve problems and to continue to learn after leaving campus. My belief is that is why many college grads are not in the fields in which they majored in college–but because of their education that teaches them how to learn new things, they are more adaptable.
Given this, I am also a critic of education in general.
Twenty, thirty, or forty years ago, a high school diploma was evidence of general competence–a person could read, write, spell, compose a paragraph, write a report, handle arithmetic and some basic mathematical computations, manage time, etc. This is like the “hands-on” college education described by some previous commenters, and adopted by some colleges. But that type of education needs to start earlier.
In the past, a bachelor’s degree meant having a fairly comprehensive knowledge of a particular subject or area, and the ability to apply or disseminate that knowledge in a professional (not to mention grammatical) manner. Now I’m seeing people in graduate programs (and even scarier, in graduate education programs) who don’t have these basic capabilities. Moreover, colleges are expected to pick up the pieces of a fractured K-12 education and provide remedial classes and tutorial services for incoming undergraduates and, more and more, classes to prepare students with bachelor’s degrees for graduate school. Students get a high school diploma without being prepared for a career or a college education; and students get watered-down bachelor’s degrees because of the reduced rigor of academic programs necessary to accommodate students whose K-12 education is lacking. That’s an extreme disservice to students and is extremely costly for the country.
Contributing even more to high college costs and thus the increase in student loan debt, taxpayer burden, and the inability of parents to save for their retirement is the fact that college students used to complete a degree in 4 years–they got in, did what they had to do, and got on with their careers. Now we have students spending extra years in college, at college-tuition prices, taking courses that should have been taught in the K-12 system. Colleges have to hire more professors to teach these additional classes, provide classroom and lab space, purchase additional volumes for their libraries, establish academic assistance programs and offices, etc. This is a very costly proposition (even if many college professors with advanced degrees do not receive the pay or benefits that K-12 teachers–with just bachelor’s degrees–in many larger or more prosperous districts receive), and these costs are shared by all consumers.
Then you have the problem of these under-educated students, even with remedial coursework, still having holes in their education, but managing to get a degree and a teaching certificate. These less-than-qualified teachers may have to repeat courses several times to meet the minimum grade point to qualify for a teaching certificate, or to meet whatever basic skills test which might be administered to those applying for a teaching credential. They are not really qualified to teach our children, but powerful teacher’s unions fight every effort to require teacher testing or continuing education or to assess outcomes to determine which teachers can teach, and know what they’re teaching, and those who can’t. They absolutely refuse to weed out the chaff.
So now we have another generation of students learning even less in K-12 than the previous generation. While the children are getting smarter and more technologically advanced, their teachers are not able to keep up. And heaven forbid if they have a gifted student in their class! Almost every school has a special education program for students who can’t keep up, but try to find schools with a regular program (not just additional work outside of classes) to educate our best and brightest–it just ain’t happening, people! Often, these students end up being bored and/or disruptive and fidgety in classes, and end up classified as ADD or ADHD, because it’s easy for teachers to write off students with these labels rather than stepping up to the plate and challenging them–especially when their own educational achievements or intellectual abilities are below the level of the academically-talented child.
So now we have all these young college students without real academic credentials coming into school, along with others who may have a good, basic high school education who really want to pursue a degree, and then, a third category, the students who are there because they’re expected to go to college, want to “find” themselves, and/or want to defer adulthood for a number of years of doing the bare minimum in classes, on their parents’ or the government’s money, and party and avoid having to actually get a job and become a productive member of society. Many of these in the third category stretch out their college attendance for years by taking the minimum number of credit hours to be full time (so they can keep their health and other benefits), knowing full well that you can’t get a 120+ credit hour degree in 4 years taking 12 credits a term. Or they waffle between majors year after year.
Years ago, students in the first category–those who really don’t have the academic background to be in college–would not have been admitted–because they would not have been granted a worthless high school diploma. Or, if they had a diploma in a vocational area, they would have been referred to a vocational institution or a less-expensive community college.
The students who had the decent high school education but who just went to college because it was expected, or to be able to party or defer becoming adults would have been told that if they’re not serious about getting a degree, they should pursue other avenues. At some points over the past 30 years, there would have been limits on the number of years they could get government grants or institutional scholarships. Those discouragements have been largely abandoned.
So now the serious students (whether 18 years old and full time of 35 and part time) are stuck having to share classrooms, professors’ time, and costs of keeping these others in school. It’s not fair for these people (or the taxpayers who pay for educational financial aid programs) to have to pay higher tuition rates to provide education for students who don’t really belong in college.
This does not mean we should deny access to college education for any qualified student–but we need to define a qualified student differently, and make the K-12 schools do their jobs and not give people diplomas until the students have that basic level of competency to either get and hold a job that will give them at least a basic standard of living, or prepare them for some sort of post-secondary education.
As long as we keep postponing educational competence, the educational level needed to secure a decent job will keep rising, from a high school diploma, to a bachelor’s degree, to a msster’s and so on. K-12 schools have to be held accountable so that colleges can quit diluting their coursework to “dumb it down” to the level of the least-qualified students and thus deprive the other students of the level of education they should be receiving. And students who really aren’t interested in getting a degree should be required to either get a degree or get out and get a job–maybe after they enter the workforce and realize what their parents and the taxpayers have to do to support their education, they’ll appreciate the opportunities they had, and return to school with a will to learn.
College is great, make no mistake, and yes, it can contribute to a higher income and a better appreciation of our culture. A college education should be an aspiration of the majority of our population, but not for the primary purpose of self-aggrandizement, but for self-realization and to contribute to society. A high school diploma should be enough to get a job, and even a decent job, but a diploma no longer means anything other than the holder showed up for a portion of 12 years of school. That is just not acceptable, and if it doesn’t change, this country is going to go the way of the empires of the past!
December 5th, 2007 | #
College (particularly beyond the first few years) as pavement on a pathway to a well-defined cost-effective personally satisfying career goal seems to make the most sense to me, unless one has the luxury of time and money to spend on what *might* be a satisfying life-changing experience.
December 7th, 2007 | #
I couldn’t agree with some of Didi’s comments more. The real purpose of a College education is to teach people how to learn. The real failure of the k-12 public system is that it did not accomplish this. Instead k-12 education focuses on learning by rote memorization and pushing of political agendas.
One interesting point on the “cost” of education is this…it is unequal for all. Two similar students with stunningly high grades can apply for the same scholarships, one whose family is destitute and the others who is “well off”. The destitute family will receive a full ride and the well off family will be forced to burn through all of their cash before receiving much. Thus the politics of our “fair and even” society, doing their best to allow all to barely scrape by. (sarcasm intended)
The real failure in education as a whole is the people being educated. They feel that learning ends when they exit an institution. Reading stops, TV and Sports take over and they complain about being pidgeon-holed in their jobs. If people were taught, by their parents, that learning never ends, can never end and must constantly be pursued and that you don’t need a professor to read the book for you, we would all be better off.
Alas, I don’t see it happening, so shine up the spoons, its time for another feeding.
December 7th, 2007 | #
I am currently editing audio from an interview I did with Ben Mitchell, admissions director at Landmark College. One of the largest reasons kids leave/flunk out of college are deficits in executive function skills, and more and more colleges and universities are trying to do something about this close to 50% attrition rate. One of the best things to “fix” the problem would be to have a mandatory freshman class, teaching organization, time management, planning and other study skills, such as how to write a good research paper, college students need to manage their lives on their own. Without teaching these skills specifically, we are leaving many students to “figure it out on their own”, and some won’t be able to before they fail. Then the lack of executive function skills will follow them to work and life, never being addressed formally, and plaguing them for years.
If we know that so many kids leave higher education, not just because of financial reasons, but because they have a hard time managing themselves without a lot of external structure, shouldn’t we try to make some of this easier all the way around, rather than leaving it up to happenstance?
December 7th, 2007 | #
Jeff, I want to go to your school.
I think students teaching students would be a huge innovation. And I don’t mean graduate students teaching undergrads. Teaching my peers is a great motivation and focus for me to really get to grips with the knowledge and skills.
Also, bring back the old-fashioned small group teacher contact with students. Kids may still be able to pass exams without it, but they are also more likely never to be inspired by their chosen major, feel uninvolved, and drop out. Euggh!
Also I would follow Philip Greenspun’s suggestions to fix funding and abolish tuition fees. The idea of signing up for massive tuition fees and then applying for financial aid is a repugnant abuse of a market power.
http://philip.greenspun.com/school/tuition-free-mit.html
December 19th, 2007 | #
To add to the conversation -
I was one of the exceptional folk, who went directly into the workforce. I place the blame for that directly on my exceptional International High School, which gave me an above board education. ;)
Kidding aside, the thing about being exceptional is, usually, eventually, some people like me will want to go on and get deep - go for their Ph.D. And sadly, they will be four years behind where they could be.
I’m fortunate; I found a wonderful University that catered to working adults while still continuing my career (yes, it’s accredited and yes it’s a thorough education: Marylhurst University.)
Still, I am years away from getting where I want to be - and most grad programs don’t care about your undergrad; I could have gotten it in underwater basketweaving and still with my work background be able to get into a good grad program.
So, I would encourage all to go to college - if only to not feel behind or play catchup years later when Grad School thoughts begin to percolate.
April 7th, 2008 | #